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	<title>Comments on: Guest Blogger Fred Strine: 1984 Now</title>
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	<link>http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/12/21/guest-blogger-fred-strine-1984-now/</link>
	<description>Closing the Achievement Gap: Teaching Content</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:59:33 -0600</lastBuildDate>
	
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/12/21/guest-blogger-fred-strine-1984-now/comment-page-1/#comment-5170</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 03:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=1676#comment-5170</guid>
		<description>Hello Fred:

I&#039;m afraid you picked a rather poor example in your opening.  According to statistics compiled nation wide approximately 80,000 Americans per year die as a direct result of MISPRESCRIBED medications by Physicians.  Simply do the math and you will soon see that by logical extension that American Physicians constitute the greatest unindicted mass murderers in history.  In short, I think the medical profession as a whole is rather unsavory and not a particularly good model to use.

The whole grammar and syntax thing has been parlayed into a system that unduly complicates what we tend to do quite naturally, namely, speak correctly.  This defect has bled over into the instructional models for teaching foreign languages.  I speak Farsi and Chinese (Mandarin dialect).  How did I learn these languages?  The same way a little Child, by interacting and conversing with accomplished speakers.

Your &quot;direct instruction&quot; approach harkens back to The Dark Ages when books were scarce and literate people even more so.  The didactic model is inefficient, counter productive, and leads to memorize then regurgitate which is not &quot;learning&quot; so much as a memory trick.  The current iteration of The Socratic Method is infinitely superior to the teacher lectures while students sit quietly and take notes.  There is more than ample evidence of my assertion by way of formal studies.

BTW, as a passing note, I found more than a couple typos in your post and some rather awkward language use as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Fred:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid you picked a rather poor example in your opening.  According to statistics compiled nation wide approximately 80,000 Americans per year die as a direct result of MISPRESCRIBED medications by Physicians.  Simply do the math and you will soon see that by logical extension that American Physicians constitute the greatest unindicted mass murderers in history.  In short, I think the medical profession as a whole is rather unsavory and not a particularly good model to use.</p>
<p>The whole grammar and syntax thing has been parlayed into a system that unduly complicates what we tend to do quite naturally, namely, speak correctly.  This defect has bled over into the instructional models for teaching foreign languages.  I speak Farsi and Chinese (Mandarin dialect).  How did I learn these languages?  The same way a little Child, by interacting and conversing with accomplished speakers.</p>
<p>Your &#8220;direct instruction&#8221; approach harkens back to The Dark Ages when books were scarce and literate people even more so.  The didactic model is inefficient, counter productive, and leads to memorize then regurgitate which is not &#8220;learning&#8221; so much as a memory trick.  The current iteration of The Socratic Method is infinitely superior to the teacher lectures while students sit quietly and take notes.  There is more than ample evidence of my assertion by way of formal studies.</p>
<p>BTW, as a passing note, I found more than a couple typos in your post and some rather awkward language use as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Lightly Seasoned</title>
		<link>http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/12/21/guest-blogger-fred-strine-1984-now/comment-page-1/#comment-5156</link>
		<dc:creator>Lightly Seasoned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 01:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=1676#comment-5156</guid>
		<description>Grammar instruction is generally horrifying.  The kids are &quot;exposed&quot; to basic grammar instruction, but it doesn&#039;t stick because it is presented &quot;in context&quot; instead of as part of an organized system.  You can&#039;t teach a kid to set off an appositive phrase with commas if he can&#039;t identify an appositive, a phrase, or the difference between restrictive and non-restrictive.

The issue isn&#039;t that English teachers are not English majors.  Everyone in my department has an English degree -- most of them at the Masters level.  When was the last time a university required mastery of grammar and usage as part of the degree requirements for English?  

Used wisely, there&#039;s nothing wrong with a LITTLE group work with very specific learning outcome objectives.  The perpetual problem is the &quot;if a little is good, all is better!&quot; mentality of education.  Carefully designed group work balanced with direct instruction is a highly effective mix in my classroom.

FWIW, I&#039;m not a geezer.  I was a little surprised not long ago when a colleague with nearly 40 years under her belt asked me to help identify a part of a sentence -- it was an object complement -- easy stuff.  So it isn&#039;t just an issue among us whippersnappa&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grammar instruction is generally horrifying.  The kids are &#8220;exposed&#8221; to basic grammar instruction, but it doesn&#8217;t stick because it is presented &#8220;in context&#8221; instead of as part of an organized system.  You can&#8217;t teach a kid to set off an appositive phrase with commas if he can&#8217;t identify an appositive, a phrase, or the difference between restrictive and non-restrictive.</p>
<p>The issue isn&#8217;t that English teachers are not English majors.  Everyone in my department has an English degree &#8212; most of them at the Masters level.  When was the last time a university required mastery of grammar and usage as part of the degree requirements for English?  </p>
<p>Used wisely, there&#8217;s nothing wrong with a LITTLE group work with very specific learning outcome objectives.  The perpetual problem is the &#8220;if a little is good, all is better!&#8221; mentality of education.  Carefully designed group work balanced with direct instruction is a highly effective mix in my classroom.</p>
<p>FWIW, I&#8217;m not a geezer.  I was a little surprised not long ago when a colleague with nearly 40 years under her belt asked me to help identify a part of a sentence &#8212; it was an object complement &#8212; easy stuff.  So it isn&#8217;t just an issue among us whippersnappa&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: Diana Senechal</title>
		<link>http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/12/21/guest-blogger-fred-strine-1984-now/comment-page-1/#comment-5137</link>
		<dc:creator>Diana Senechal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=1676#comment-5137</guid>
		<description>Another sad effect of the &quot;teacher-facilitator&quot; craze is that teachers who do know and love their subject quickly learn that they are not supposed to teach it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another sad effect of the &#8220;teacher-facilitator&#8221; craze is that teachers who do know and love their subject quickly learn that they are not supposed to teach it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen</title>
		<link>http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/12/21/guest-blogger-fred-strine-1984-now/comment-page-1/#comment-5135</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 06:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=1676#comment-5135</guid>
		<description>What a refreshing post! As a parent, I lamented the lack of basic mathematical education and English skills present in the curriculum of both of my public school children. I was appalled that they were not taught the foundational skills necessary to carry them through their education. Locally, it&#039;s a well known fact that kids working the snack stand at baseball games do not know how to give proper change. Group projects have taken over basic Math skills. The students in my son&#039;s class spent 15 minutes drawing out arrays to solve one simple multiplication problem. It was also my experience that letters sent home to parents from teachers were riddled with improper grammar and simple spelling errors. This was horrifying! My 3rd grader was puzzled and asked me why his teacher couldn&#039;t spell such simple words. I spoke with teachers, administrators and superintendents in charge of curriculum, but my concerns fell on deaf ears. (I am in an &quot;Excellent&quot; school district according to test scores!) When I started to teach my children at home with the K12 curriculum in the third and fourth grades, they had never been taught what a subject or predicate was, much less the parts of speech. Spelling words were simply a page in a packet to be learned at home during the week. 

I understand Gene&#039;s point that &quot;teaching a language and its usage is a moving target&quot;. However, it seems that instead of improving techniques or intelligently discerning which aspects of English instruction need to be updated or adapted, the trend is to abandon all basic instruction of the English language for newer (unproven) techniques. 

These are not cartoons.  These are children who were short-changed out of the basics of their education, have now grown up, and are now educating other children. I wholeheartedly agree with Renee that &quot;teacher preparation&quot; must be taken more seriously.


Thanks to Mr. Strine for an excellent post and call to indeed &quot;Wise up, America.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a refreshing post! As a parent, I lamented the lack of basic mathematical education and English skills present in the curriculum of both of my public school children. I was appalled that they were not taught the foundational skills necessary to carry them through their education. Locally, it&#8217;s a well known fact that kids working the snack stand at baseball games do not know how to give proper change. Group projects have taken over basic Math skills. The students in my son&#8217;s class spent 15 minutes drawing out arrays to solve one simple multiplication problem. It was also my experience that letters sent home to parents from teachers were riddled with improper grammar and simple spelling errors. This was horrifying! My 3rd grader was puzzled and asked me why his teacher couldn&#8217;t spell such simple words. I spoke with teachers, administrators and superintendents in charge of curriculum, but my concerns fell on deaf ears. (I am in an &#8220;Excellent&#8221; school district according to test scores!) When I started to teach my children at home with the K12 curriculum in the third and fourth grades, they had never been taught what a subject or predicate was, much less the parts of speech. Spelling words were simply a page in a packet to be learned at home during the week. </p>
<p>I understand Gene&#8217;s point that &#8220;teaching a language and its usage is a moving target&#8221;. However, it seems that instead of improving techniques or intelligently discerning which aspects of English instruction need to be updated or adapted, the trend is to abandon all basic instruction of the English language for newer (unproven) techniques. </p>
<p>These are not cartoons.  These are children who were short-changed out of the basics of their education, have now grown up, and are now educating other children. I wholeheartedly agree with Renee that &#8220;teacher preparation&#8221; must be taken more seriously.</p>
<p>Thanks to Mr. Strine for an excellent post and call to indeed &#8220;Wise up, America.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Renee</title>
		<link>http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/12/21/guest-blogger-fred-strine-1984-now/comment-page-1/#comment-5133</link>
		<dc:creator>Renee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=1676#comment-5133</guid>
		<description>I can appreciate Fred&#039;s frustrations. As a veteran English teacher myself, I have been been worried for some time over the number of new English faculty at the secondary level who have limited understanding of basic grammar themselves and no preparation in how to teach it (a separate and important skill). &quot;Teaching grammar through writing&quot; has been a mantra among English professionals for some time; however, it is usually quoted and applied out of context. To teach students the rules of grammar as they grapple to express their own ideas in writing is a powerful concept, but it requires a high level of grammar proficiency and close attention by the teacher. Teachers who come to the classroom via traditional teacher education programs get very little of this training; those who come through alternative routes get none. We have to take teacher preparation more seriously to correct problems such as this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can appreciate Fred&#8217;s frustrations. As a veteran English teacher myself, I have been been worried for some time over the number of new English faculty at the secondary level who have limited understanding of basic grammar themselves and no preparation in how to teach it (a separate and important skill). &#8220;Teaching grammar through writing&#8221; has been a mantra among English professionals for some time; however, it is usually quoted and applied out of context. To teach students the rules of grammar as they grapple to express their own ideas in writing is a powerful concept, but it requires a high level of grammar proficiency and close attention by the teacher. Teachers who come to the classroom via traditional teacher education programs get very little of this training; those who come through alternative routes get none. We have to take teacher preparation more seriously to correct problems such as this.</p>
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		<title>By: Gene</title>
		<link>http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/12/21/guest-blogger-fred-strine-1984-now/comment-page-1/#comment-5128</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 01:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=1676#comment-5128</guid>
		<description>We all have our own boat to row; and some of us are aware that we have passengers (students) to deliver. Remember that oars and paddles both exist because of the differences among boats … or should that be &quot;between boats&quot; since I only mentioned two devices?

My point is that teaching a language and its usage is a moving target. No, after 38 years in the classroom, I can&#039;t stand to hear the way our young English teachers speak and write. I can&#039;t comment on their teaching methods or effectiveness. But even I didn&#039;t learn the language the way it was used by my grand-parents or our nation&#039;s founders. Dictionaries grow and words take on new meanings. That&#039;s the nature of a language.

My career was in science. My job was to teach the methods of discovering how nature works. Some facts were presented. There isn&#039;t time to invent the wheel for every topic. However, the theme is that nature doesn&#039;t change, so we&#039;re not chasing a moving target in physics. Certainly our understanding has changed over the years, but that&#039;s not the same as our agreeing to change the rules of acceptance. 

I&#039;m personally glad that doctors tend to be more scientific than grammatically correct. Ninety-nine percent of the doctors have been &quot;taught&quot; that peptic ulcers are pH oriented and can be treated with a bland diet and by avoiding acidic food. Fortunately, we now know otherwise due to one investigative mind. 

Rachel, with five degrees in physics and biology, I can&#039;t teach math either since I started with the Calculus and never had a college level algebra class. At the same time, my math department had to hire a university consultant to help pick a new Calculus text.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We all have our own boat to row; and some of us are aware that we have passengers (students) to deliver. Remember that oars and paddles both exist because of the differences among boats … or should that be &#8220;between boats&#8221; since I only mentioned two devices?</p>
<p>My point is that teaching a language and its usage is a moving target. No, after 38 years in the classroom, I can&#8217;t stand to hear the way our young English teachers speak and write. I can&#8217;t comment on their teaching methods or effectiveness. But even I didn&#8217;t learn the language the way it was used by my grand-parents or our nation&#8217;s founders. Dictionaries grow and words take on new meanings. That&#8217;s the nature of a language.</p>
<p>My career was in science. My job was to teach the methods of discovering how nature works. Some facts were presented. There isn&#8217;t time to invent the wheel for every topic. However, the theme is that nature doesn&#8217;t change, so we&#8217;re not chasing a moving target in physics. Certainly our understanding has changed over the years, but that&#8217;s not the same as our agreeing to change the rules of acceptance. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m personally glad that doctors tend to be more scientific than grammatically correct. Ninety-nine percent of the doctors have been &#8220;taught&#8221; that peptic ulcers are pH oriented and can be treated with a bland diet and by avoiding acidic food. Fortunately, we now know otherwise due to one investigative mind. </p>
<p>Rachel, with five degrees in physics and biology, I can&#8217;t teach math either since I started with the Calculus and never had a college level algebra class. At the same time, my math department had to hire a university consultant to help pick a new Calculus text.</p>
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		<title>By: Diana Senechal</title>
		<link>http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/12/21/guest-blogger-fred-strine-1984-now/comment-page-1/#comment-5127</link>
		<dc:creator>Diana Senechal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 00:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=1676#comment-5127</guid>
		<description>Fred,

I think you miss the glorious side of it. The point of making teachers into facilitators is to allow them to fill out paperwork during class time. While the students work in groups, teachers can write up conferencing notes, running records, anecdotals, incident reports, student goals, individual assessments, graphic organizers, authentic comments, reading behavior checklists, and all those other necessary things. If teachers were teaching the subject during class time, they wouldn&#039;t be able to do all that. Nor would they be able to do it during prep time; they&#039;d be busy preparing substantial lessons.

We may not have poetry or grammar. But oh, do we ever have data!

Diana Senechal</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred,</p>
<p>I think you miss the glorious side of it. The point of making teachers into facilitators is to allow them to fill out paperwork during class time. While the students work in groups, teachers can write up conferencing notes, running records, anecdotals, incident reports, student goals, individual assessments, graphic organizers, authentic comments, reading behavior checklists, and all those other necessary things. If teachers were teaching the subject during class time, they wouldn&#8217;t be able to do all that. Nor would they be able to do it during prep time; they&#8217;d be busy preparing substantial lessons.</p>
<p>We may not have poetry or grammar. But oh, do we ever have data!</p>
<p>Diana Senechal</p>
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		<title>By: TM Willemse</title>
		<link>http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/12/21/guest-blogger-fred-strine-1984-now/comment-page-1/#comment-5125</link>
		<dc:creator>TM Willemse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=1676#comment-5125</guid>
		<description>Ed Trust issued a report on out-of-field teaching titled “Core Problems” in November 2008. It is worth a thorough reading.  This “rant” could have been a thesis with footnotes, but this is a blog.  Nevertheless, these are complaints I have read about in plenty of theses with plenty of footnotes.  There is reason to be optimistic, however.  The What Works Clearinghouse received a good grade from the National Board for Education Sciences, bringing their standards for what constitutes good research closer to gold.  Progressive philosophy too often flies in the face of facts – and right into a wall of data and statistics.  The world really is round, planets do orbit the sun, and the success of Direct Instruction does meet strict scrutiny.  Chin up, then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed Trust issued a report on out-of-field teaching titled “Core Problems” in November 2008. It is worth a thorough reading.  This “rant” could have been a thesis with footnotes, but this is a blog.  Nevertheless, these are complaints I have read about in plenty of theses with plenty of footnotes.  There is reason to be optimistic, however.  The What Works Clearinghouse received a good grade from the National Board for Education Sciences, bringing their standards for what constitutes good research closer to gold.  Progressive philosophy too often flies in the face of facts – and right into a wall of data and statistics.  The world really is round, planets do orbit the sun, and the success of Direct Instruction does meet strict scrutiny.  Chin up, then.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Rude</title>
		<link>http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/12/21/guest-blogger-fred-strine-1984-now/comment-page-1/#comment-5123</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Rude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 15:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=1676#comment-5123</guid>
		<description>So what&#039;s going on in the teaching of English?  I&#039;ve never given much thought to it, as I teach math, but I&#039;ve never doubted that English is important.  It is true, is it not, that most kids get some instruction in their native language in every year of schooling in grades 1 through 12?  With all that time available, surely grammar fits in there somewhere.  I can well imagine lots of students sit through years of instruction and still can&#039;t identify a direct object, but the idea that they are not exposed to grammar is surprising and disturbing.  I can well imagine that English teachers have disagreements about how to teach grammar, and how to teach literature, and how to teach composition.  But does anyone in the field actually advocate  the elimination of grammar?  

   Can we hear from some other English teachers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what&#8217;s going on in the teaching of English?  I&#8217;ve never given much thought to it, as I teach math, but I&#8217;ve never doubted that English is important.  It is true, is it not, that most kids get some instruction in their native language in every year of schooling in grades 1 through 12?  With all that time available, surely grammar fits in there somewhere.  I can well imagine lots of students sit through years of instruction and still can&#8217;t identify a direct object, but the idea that they are not exposed to grammar is surprising and disturbing.  I can well imagine that English teachers have disagreements about how to teach grammar, and how to teach literature, and how to teach composition.  But does anyone in the field actually advocate  the elimination of grammar?  </p>
<p>   Can we hear from some other English teachers?</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/12/21/guest-blogger-fred-strine-1984-now/comment-page-1/#comment-5121</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=1676#comment-5121</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Again to Rachael: Just how are my personal observations with real students “cartoons”? If your classroom experiences contradict mine, please feel free to share them with us in an essay of your own.&lt;/i&gt;

My classroom experience (which, I admit is much more limited than Fred Strine&#039;s) suggests that there are very few simple answers. 

But though I see less focus on building up a structure of basic factual knowledge than I&#039;d like, I also don&#039;t see &quot;group work&quot; taking over the way this post suggests.  From the corner of the education word I&#039;ve seen, students doing nothing but group work, not caring about subject-verb agreement, and being taught by teachers with little academic training except what they got from education professors who are enamored of Cuba and the Soviet Union is a cartoon.

On one very specific issue, California, at least, makes it very difficult for secondary teachers to teach outside of the field they majored in in college.  It isn&#039;t even simple for a someone who majors in physics to teach math.  So the picture of teachers with no subject matter training just doesn&#039;t fit with the reality I see.

More generally, the problem I had with the post was that what I learned was how Fred Strine felt about the issue.  And certainly 36 years of teaching experience gives anyone a right to tell people how he feels, and to be taken seriously.  But I also know progressive educators with 36 years experience (Deborah Meier, for example) who could tell me, with equal passion, about the great strides their pupils made in truly progressive environments.

So at the end of a day of blog reading, it helps to have something more concrete than a variety of strong opinions to take away with me.  Thanks for providing the references to Project Follow Through -- it actually wasn&#039;t obvious from the original post that direct instruction was central to what you were advocating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Again to Rachael: Just how are my personal observations with real students “cartoons”? If your classroom experiences contradict mine, please feel free to share them with us in an essay of your own.</i></p>
<p>My classroom experience (which, I admit is much more limited than Fred Strine&#8217;s) suggests that there are very few simple answers. </p>
<p>But though I see less focus on building up a structure of basic factual knowledge than I&#8217;d like, I also don&#8217;t see &#8220;group work&#8221; taking over the way this post suggests.  From the corner of the education word I&#8217;ve seen, students doing nothing but group work, not caring about subject-verb agreement, and being taught by teachers with little academic training except what they got from education professors who are enamored of Cuba and the Soviet Union is a cartoon.</p>
<p>On one very specific issue, California, at least, makes it very difficult for secondary teachers to teach outside of the field they majored in in college.  It isn&#8217;t even simple for a someone who majors in physics to teach math.  So the picture of teachers with no subject matter training just doesn&#8217;t fit with the reality I see.</p>
<p>More generally, the problem I had with the post was that what I learned was how Fred Strine felt about the issue.  And certainly 36 years of teaching experience gives anyone a right to tell people how he feels, and to be taken seriously.  But I also know progressive educators with 36 years experience (Deborah Meier, for example) who could tell me, with equal passion, about the great strides their pupils made in truly progressive environments.</p>
<p>So at the end of a day of blog reading, it helps to have something more concrete than a variety of strong opinions to take away with me.  Thanks for providing the references to Project Follow Through &#8212; it actually wasn&#8217;t obvious from the original post that direct instruction was central to what you were advocating.</p>
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